The Business of Independence

About our guest

Episode Transcript

David: This is Practical Accessibility Insights, a podcast that brings you practical tips and tricks in helping to make your business more inclusive. I’m David Best and Sandi Gauder, my co-host is with me. Hi, Sandi.

Sandi: Hi David, how are you today?

David: I’m great. So can you tell us what our topic is for today?

Sandi: So in this podcast, we’re going to talk about the business of independence and discuss with our guest what it means to him, what independence means and how it relates to the whole idea of accessibility.

David: With us today we have Martin Courcelles. Hi, Martin.

Martin: Hello David, how are you?

David: I’m good. To get started, why don’t you just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do and why you do it.

Martin: My career spans almost 25 years now, which is kind of scary, but I always had issues with access to information. So after a while, my career sort of branched into that sort of thing, which is digital accessibility.

So currently I’m working at CIBC as a user experience accessibility consultant. So what I do is I make sure that all the apps that we have, which there are many, and websites are as accessible as possible. So we have a fairly big accessibility team there. And so, yeah, so I’m part of that. And it’s kind of fun because making things more accessible has always been sort of my niche, you know, both in a personal and professional sort of stance.

Besides that hobbies, like running, reading, swimming. What else? Just hanging out. That’s about it.

David: I understand that you are a complex guy and before we get started, I’m going to give you a test. I’m going to play a tune and see if you can tell me what it is, okay?

[lively music plays]

David: Does that tune sound familiar Martin?

Martin: Yes it does, David!

I see you have discovered me on Suno AI which is a platform that lets you create music with AI. So you throw in a few ideas and it comes back with catchy tunes like that. So that’s hilarious.

David: You can’t hide anywhere these days, Martin.

Martin: No, I guess not.

David: What we want to do is first of all, we want to talk about what independence is. What it means to different people. So what does it mean to you? What does independence mean?

Martin: So essentially for me, independence is being able to get from point A to point B on my own, but it’s also being able to do stuff on my own. So for example, that Suno AI song I was able to create on my own. There were accessibility issues on the webpage which I flagged and sent to the company.

So I’m always trying to make things easier and sometimes I find myself being caught on a problem and working on it for an hour or two and then realizing, okay, this is a lost cause, I should probably find a different way to attack this problem.

When I’m thinking about independence with mobility, for example, I have a guide dog, I have a white cane. I have access to, you know, GPS talking programs. So I have all these tools and, sometimes I tend to have way too many things on my, on my person, you know, you have, because I, deal with both Android and iOS. So I have two phones. I have the Meta glasses now. And there’s just so many things, but at the same time, it’s making me feel more independent and more able to do things on my own.

David: I assume that you feel far more independent today than you did 20 years ago?

Martin: I do, but sometimes it’s kind of, it’s a double-edged sword, right? So in the past, you know, I would go to a new location and I would figure it out on the fly. These days I look at my GPS program before going out and finding more information, which is good, but at the same time, it’s like the exploration is not as much there as it was in past.

Again, sometimes the exploration was frustrating because you’d have to ask people around you for directions. And some people didn’t speak English, so that would be frustrating. Others would just totally ignore you. So having the GPS does help a lot because then you can just be on your own and figure it out. Having a guide dog is also kind of fun because they will also tell you if you’re, you know there’s a big hole in front of you. Like, there’s a big hole. I’m not going there.

David: So you haven’t got one of the robot dogs yet.

Martin: No, and that comes to another topic, which is the Glidance product. So Glidance is a product that you push in front of you. And it’s based on AI. When I went to look at the product, they didn’t have a working product. So it was all sort of conjecture and, you know, somebody remote controlling the device itself.

So I haven’t seen a full working model. But I don’t know if I’m sold on it. I don’t know if it’s because I’m older or what it is, but I still like having access to a guide dog or to my white cane. I’m not relying on batteries at this point, right?

Remember the old bubble mowers you used to buy for your kids. It looks kind of weird. I’m not sure like I mean, the concept is really cool. But I guess the proof will be in the pudding as they say.

Sandi: In the digital space, do you find that technology is advancing so, so quickly, or do you feel more independent now than you did 25 years ago when you started your career? Or do you feel less independent? Has all this advancement in digital technology made it easier for you to use the web, use the internet, use apps, all that kind of stuff? Get your job done?

Martin: So I feel that we have a lot more choice now. So when you look at digital accessibility, for example, you look at the Windows platform. We have a built-in screen reader now called Microsoft Narrator, which works in a snap. It wouldn’t be a tool that I’d be using every day, but it’s getting there. We have NVDA, which is a free screen reader. Anybody can download it and install it, which is fantastic. And then we have JAWS.

And then you look at devices that are coming out that are, you know, geared towards, you know, just the public. And it has built in accessibility like the Meta glasses I was talking about. I can actually take a picture and ask it, you know can you explain what I’m what I’m looking at? You can say, read this menu or stuff like that, right. So I think, yeah, I think it’s it’s improved a lot.

There’s still a lot of more work to be done. But just having accessibility within, you know, smartphones, for example, it’s all built in. And that’s what I like because now accessibility it’s part and parcel of everything, which is really cool. Now, the only thing that they have to make more accessible is like appliances and stuff like that.

Sandi: I would like that too. They’re getting so complicated that, yeah, you almost need a university degree to operate them.

David: So that brings me to the question of people in general don’t understand the technology that we use. They know what a screen reader might be, but they don’t really know how it works or how we use our iPhone GPS and stuff. How do you find social connections?

Because if you’re working, people learn how you sort of use your equipment, but in the general public, they don’t understand how you use the equipment. And secondly, when you’re got so many voices talking to you through many different devices, how do you connect with people without interrupting your GPS talk?

Martin: Yeah, that’s a good question. I also use Braille. So I have Braille displays that are fairly small that I can use for texting and stuff like that. And I use that with my smartphones. But yeah, when it comes to audio, yes, there’s a lot of audio information that is being thrown at you because that’s just the nature of the beast, right?

So what I try to do is lower the volume so that I can actually have conversations. It does sort of throw you off sometimes, especially if the voice is loud. So you sort of navigate that.

And I know of some blind people that are able to do presentations by listening to their screen reader read their notes. But when they’re talking, you can sort of tell that they’re reading their notes with audio because the presentation is just, it’s not the same. It’s sort of stilted and it’s really hard to do. So I usually, if I do presentations, which I do at work a lot about screen readers, actually, I take a lot of Braille notes or I just ad lib, which I love doing anyway.

David: I’m curious to know how do you measure independence for people with vision loss? Because you’re talking about all the technology we have, which is great, it gives us independence, and we have a lot of you know, volunteers and people wanting to help and stuff. Do we consider that fully independent or how do we measure that level of independence we have? Because I find that some people consider themselves independent and yet they are still very dependent on people to help them find things and get around.

Martin: And that’s an interesting question because through my life when I was younger in my 20s, I remember being vehemently opposed to having any help whatsoever. Somebody would approach me on the street and said, you do you need help? I would, no, I’m doing it on my own. And very, very aggressive that way.

And now that I’ve become older and wiser, anytime I’m walking and somebody says, are you crossing the street? Yes. Would you, would you like a hand? I always say yes. Why not? Like it’s less stress on me. Whatever, I mean, if they’re going the same way, that’s fantastic. I’ve had people who’ve tried to offer me to help me and they’re going the opposite way. And it’s like, well, that doesn’t really make sense. Right?

And that’s the other thing too, I mean, like at work sometimes, you know, everybody’s going to the same meeting and somebody just offers me an arm and, okay, that’s fine. I do have a guide dog. I could walk on my own. I could very well do that, it’s just, and I know I’m independent because, you know, I can go home on my own. I can come back to work on my own. So, you know, you just sort of, it’s pick and choose for me at this point of my life.

I mean, I’ve proved that I’m, I am independent and I’ve proved that I can do stuff on my own. So somebody wants to help me. Whatever.

David: Yeah, absolutely. It doesn’t diminish your independence, I believe. I think there’s multiple ways of being independent, and there’s not one right way or wrong way, but it depends on the individual’s personality. Like for myself, I prefer to depend on technology. I will use my GPS and whatever I have to use before I’ll ask somebody for help.

Whereas I know some people don’t like technology at all and they’re dependent on people to help them find their way around and which is fine if that’s what they’re comfortable with. And I think, you know, that’s fine if that’s how they measure their independence. That’s great.

Martin: And I mean, you know, the other day I was walking home and there was construction. It wasn’t there in the morning and it was there in the afternoon. And I tried going around it and I made a few bad choices and somebody saw me and they said, do you need help? And it’s like, I have no idea what to do at this point. So they said, yeah, yeah, just go back, you know, and then we’ll, we’ll meet you at the corner. And, you know, so I got that sort of help. And sometimes it’s just really hard to figure something out, especially if there’s construction and you don’t want to hurt yourself, right? So rather if somebody’s sighted and seeing you struggle, yeah, I’ll grab that.

Sandi: Do you feel independent in the workplace? Do you have all the tools and resources you need to do your job? Or do you still have to get help to navigate to get your work done?

Martin: I’ve always been a self advocate. So when I start a new job, I always make sure that I contact the accommodations people. If it’s a smaller company, then I’ll just tell them what I need. And I prefer to be able to use a braille display and using JAWS and or NVDA.

I’m able to tell them exactly what I need. And I think that’s really important when you’re applying for a job, because if you don’t know what you need, the employer is not going to know either. And they can’t really make guesses for you because only you know what you need to make your job that much easier.

So sometimes it depends, you know, if you need to access something that’s not accessible, then yeah, you need to, you know, voice your issues and be able to sort of navigate through that. How are we going to make it more accessible, right? But for me, I’m always testing stuff for accessibility. So if I do find issues, then I report them.

I was thinking the other day about independence and I grew up in Manitoba and now that Greyhound is gone and stuff like that, there’s a lot of problems with transportation when it comes to someone who is blind, for example. I don’t know if I could live on the outskirts in Manitoba these days because there’s just no way for me to get back into this city on my own.

So, and then I’m thinking of all of my family who have to depend on cars to be independent, right? So you’re living out of the city, so your independence is that car. If you didn’t have that car, then you’d be dependent on someone else. So independence comes in so many different colors.

David: So when you have a disability, you’ve got to become very inventive. You’ve got to be innovative and come up with solutions because typically nobody’s going to solve the problems for you. You’ve got to become a problem solver yourself. And in a large company, you get a lot of support from the company providing you with the equipment you need and expert support with learning to use it.

What is available for people that work for a small company and say less than 10 employees. They don’t necessarily have the resources to buy braille displays and things. What’s available for those businesses to support people with disabilities?

Martin: Yeah, you’re talking about being inventive. My wife calls me the blind MacGyver because I’m always coming up with various weird things that work for me. So it’s kind of funny. But for small businesses, if you’re hiring someone with a disability, the first thing you have to look is built environment. I mentioned my wife and she’s now using a wheelchair. So built environment is a huge, huge thing that I had never really investigated before this happened.

So, you know, just a four inch step in front of your front door is a huge accessibility issue that can be easily fixed. I looked up on Amazon, there’s these curb things that you can get, but they’re, usually for, you know, when people are moving carts or whatever, but it works for wheelchairs as well. So you just slap that down, it’s about 80 bucks and it’s fixed.

But if you’re hiring somebody with a visual disability, then the easiest thing to do would be to get NVDA since it’s open source and the person might actually know about NVDA already. If not, there is a lot of online tutorials that would help you with learning that.

I think that’s the most important thing is, is knowing whether the person knows their, their access technology, right? Their screen reading technology. Because you, you want them to come with tools to, the workforce. And if they don’t know how to use a screen reader, then that’s a huge issue, right? And it’s not something I would suggest on anybody taking it on unless they have a lot of time.

As for braille displays, yes, they are inherently expensive. So I wouldn’t expect a small company to supply that. I tend to have a lot of braille displays, so I would probably bring my own.

If the person turns out to be a great fit, then you could look at maybe there are some programs out there that would be able to help you pay for the Braille display, that sort of thing, or grants, stuff like that.

David: I find it interesting that people tend to try and solve the problem for you. And I can remember when I first started working for Air Canada, I was told, no, you can’t do that. And I would turn around and say, How do you know? I can’t solve a problem unless you give me a problem to solve.

Martin: Exactly.

David: So, what I try to encourage small business owners to do is work with the individual and let them experiment, let them try things out and let them solve their own problem. Because it’s the lived experience that really counts, right?

Martin: Very much so. Oh yeah, totally. I mean, the person with the disability is actually the, what do they call them? SME? So, Subject Matter Expert. And I think that it’s always best to ask them, how can I help you? Or what do you need? Or, you know, not say, okay, this is what we’re gonna do.

Sandi: So, just going down this road of a small business looking to hire somebody with a disability. If we assume that there’s no bias whatsoever, that I just want to hire the best person for the job, regardless of disability, is there anything that I need to be thinking about beyond being unbiased when it comes to making sure that I’ve got the right setup, the right working environment? You talked about physical access, being able to get into the workplace. That seems to be pretty apparent. But are there other things that I really need to be paying attention to that I may not think about as someone interviewing potential employees?

Martin: That’s a good question. I think that the, you know, I’m thinking of blindness perspective is being able to test the person to see how well they work with their screen readers and if they’re able to access the technology that you have there. So for example, if there’s like some sort of software that you use for your company, that needs to be assessed to be, are they able to actually access it? Are they able to use it? That sort of thing, right? So stuff like that.

Sandi: During the interview process, you mean? Yeah, like, because it’s kind of tricky, right? Like if you, Martin, are the perfect person for the job, and I absolutely want to hire you, but we use this pretty bizarre software that you can’t access.

What do I do? What do I do with somebody who wants to hire you, but there’s this huge barrier. Do I need to think about changing my software? Do I go to a different vendor that might work better for you? Or do I say, sorry, Martin, I just can’t hire you? Which would be a horrible thing to say.

Martin: And that’s where things, yeah, and that’s where things get complicated, right? I mean, if it’s run-of-the-mill stuff like Word, PowerPoint, Excel, that’s all fully accessible, so that’s no problem. When it comes down to smaller programs or smaller vendors, that is where it could become an issue.

I’ve seen situations where people have accepted the position on a temporary basis to see if it actually works for them. And then they get brought into the place of business. And then they try the software to see, what is it actually accessible? Is it actually feasible for us to be able to hire you? But yeah, you can always go back to the vendor and say, listen, this is not accessible. And in this day and age, they should know what accessibility is, but there’s always surprises out there.

I’ve dealt with many vendors. So and say, OK, what can you do to make it more accessible? And what’s your plan if it’s not accessible? What is your plan to make it more accessible? This is not helping the person that you just are trying to hire. But at the same time, it’s making it more accessible.

It’s not a full answer. I’m sure a lot of small businesses would struggle with this sort of thing. I’m not saying not to do it, I’m saying you do have to explore it. If you do find a candidate that has a disability, don’t turn them down.

David: The challenge small business has is that there’s a lot of myths and misleading information out there. You get a lot of different perspectives on how you can be more inclusive. And I like to suggest that for a small business, since they are really dependent on third party vendors to provide support for them, whether it’s a website or whether it’s accounting or marketing, they should also consider partnerships with disability organizations so that they have a resource to go to to find out how they can handle certain situations because nobody has a perfect answer or solution to the problem because we’re all unique. So do you know of any small organizations that support people with disabilities, that actually work with small business?

Martin: Here in Toronto, there’s an organization called Balance for Blind Adults and they will help with that sort of situation. They go client by client because every situation is different. CNIB also has some resources, March of Dimes as well. So yeah, there are organizations out there and I’m glad you brought that up because I think the scariest thing is when you’re a small business and you think you’re, you’re alone and you definitely are not, there are some resources out there for you.

David: For a blind person, someone with vision loss, wanting to find a job, a career where they can move forward, is it necessary for someone to be technically skilled? I know for myself and probably you that we had to learn our screen reader inside out. We had to learn how to script with it. We had to learn how to use operating systems like whether it’s Windows or Apple. And the more proficient we became with that knowledge, the more opportunities we had. Do they have to become that technical today?

Martin: So I always think back to one of my old managers who happened to be blind and she has always admitted that she hated computers. And so the way she functions is she sort of memorizes the steps to do things and it’s worked for her. But the problem with that sometimes is that if something breaks or something changes, then she’s dead in the water.

So then she has to rely on other people to help her and stuff like that. So, I think knowing your technology is very important and knowing it as much as you can because then you don’t have to rely on other people to help you.

I’m just a huge techie nerd by trade. I love trying new things and stuff like that. So I’m always trying to see how I can become more efficient and stuff like that. Not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody wants to be that way. But I think it’s really important to know at least the basics to be able to move around efficiently on web pages and the like. I think it’s important to know office products such as Microsoft Office or even Google Docs, something like that so that you have some knowledge and you’re able to do you know just as much as sighted person can.

Sandi: Is there one simple thing our listeners can do today that would help remove barriers and promote independence for people with disabilities?

Martin: Well, I would say if you have a physical building, look at its accessibility features and its accessibility issues. I think for small businesses, the best thing to do is just sit down and think about how accessible are we and what can we improve to make our business more accessible and more inviting to people with disabilities.

Everybody’s going to have a disability at one point or another in their lives, whether it be a full-term disability or temporary. I mean, somebody will break an arm.

You know, so you have to think about that sort of thing. So I think it’s just sort of do an exercise of contemplation and figure out, you know, what can we improve in our business to make it more accessible?

David: Yeah, I like to say that it’s all about communications. If you don’t interact with different groups of people, you never really learn or understand how those people live their life and how they do things. So it’s really important for a small business to interact with the disability community in one way or another.

Martin: And that’s a huge resource too, right? Because the person with a disability knows best of how something should work to make it easier for them. I think it’s really important to talk to people with disabilities and just sort of explore what can we do better.

Sandi: It’s those conversations with people, whether they have a disability or not, they open your mind to other ways of getting around or getting through life. And it’s those different perspectives that I think help us solve problems and find better ways to do things.

Martin: It’s like that old trope of the curb cuts. It was done for people in wheelchairs and it benefits everybody, right. So that sort of thing that I think is really cool is when something is built or there’s a concept made and it just so happens to be accessible. It doesn’t happen all the time.

And it’s a lot cheaper than other, you know, blindness products out there because that’s the other thing, right? There’s an inherent, you know, expense when you want to buy things for people with disabilities. You look at my wife whose wheelchair is over $20,000 and I think that’s ridiculous because it’s, yes, it is a motorized wheelchair, but the pieces that are used to make this wheelchair would never amount to $20,000. So there seems to be like a disability tax is what I’m trying to say, I guess.

David: Well, thank you so much, Martin, for joining us and giving us another perspective on what independence is all about. I’m going to close off with another clip that I think you would appreciate since you are a complex guy.

[Bugs Bunny theme music plays]

Bugs Bunny voice: “Well good-bye. And don’t think it hasn’t been a slice of heaven because it hasnt.”

Martin: Good old Bugs Bunny.

Sandi: That’s all folks.

Martin: That’s hilarious. Well, thank you so much for inviting me today, Dave and Sandi. It was great having this conversation. I like exploring this sort of stuff and you guys are doing a great job with the podcast. So thank you.

David: I want to thank you for coming on. And Sandi, thank you again for joining us and helping me to work our way through these questions that I think a lot of our listeners have about hiring people with disabilities. And if anybody who is listening has questions or suggestions, I appreciate if they would reach out to us.

The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed on this podcast are the speaker’s own and do not necessarily represent those of the podcast team and partners. This podcast is for information and learning purposes only. The Practical Accessibility Insights podcast is hosted by CMS Web Solutions. The intent of this podcast is to raise awareness for practical advice and strategies for making digital and physical environments more accessible to everyone.

Thank you for joining us in this time of discovery and sharing for a more inclusive society. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at info, I N F O at david dot best or Sandi, S A N D I at CMS web solutions dot com. For more information and resources, go to www.CMSWebSolutions.com or www.BestAccessibility.consulting.